Mexican American Oral Histories

Melissa Berry: This is Melissa Berry and John Moreno interviewing Juan Soto. Juan, could you please state and spell your name for us?

Juan Soto: My name is Juan Soto, J, U, A, N, S, O, T, O. My brother started playing on the team. His name is Frank. Everybody knew him as Tarzan. That was his nickname, and he started playing on the team roughly, maybe 1965 and I think the Hawks originated in '58. My brother joined in '65-- he went in fresh out of high school, and I was in fifth grade, sixth grade, and I kind of became the bat boy, because he take me to the games all the time. So, you know, I'm hanging around and so on. And by the time I turned 15, they had-- the city had-- a rule that you cannot play men's softball until you were minimum 15 years old. So as soon as I turned 15, they put me on the roster, and so I started playing with the Hawks, and I stayed playing fast pitch till the age of 45 with the Hawks.

John Moreno: Can I ask a question? Did you play Little League before that?

JS: I did play Little League. Matter of fact, here at Rodeo Park, we live right down the street here, and my mom... let me remember, we walked to the park when they're doing the groundbreaking ceremonies for Rodeo Park, which is now Rudy Garcia Park, yeah, it used to be Joe Garagiola Park, right? But everybody calls it Rodeo still. But I was actually there for the ground-- groundbreaking ceremonies, and they were going to start a new Little League called the American Little League. And so, yeah, I was there at the very, very first year of Little League. Wow.

JM: Wow, so you had some ball experience here.

JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was, again, around '64, '65. Yeah. So I played with the Hawks until, you know, I was a youngest for many years, and then I became the oldest for many years, and I started playing when I-- it was, some of these guys I was playing with, eventually I'm playing with their sons, because we started getting now another generation of Hawks from the same families, you know, and, and so the Hawks continued to play after I'd retired from fastpitch, and I had to wait five years before I could start playing Senior League. Because [in] Senior you have to be 50 years old. So between 45 and 50, you know, I played some ball here and ball games here and there, but I didn't get into another league, and the team I got into were the Hawks, because now we had a Senior League team and fastpitch team.

So the Senior League is slowpitch right? So we had fastpitch Hawks and slowpitch Hawks. So I started with the slowpitch Hawks when I was 50, and I am now 71 so I've been with them for 21 years. So if you add, what is it, 35 and 21 or whatever, I have about 50 years playing with the Hawks and, and, I was going to start off as saying, because you can tell a lot of this is obvious. How important has that experience been to me? And I'll tell you, it made me very much the man I am today. That's how important it is. Yeah. So right now, we changed our name a few years ago to the Gavilanes, which means Hawks, okay? So our slowpitch, we call-- and the reason we retired the name Hawks is because when the fastpitch team finally retired, they stopped having fastpitch, we decided, instead of being called the Hawks, to honor the fastpitch retirement, we changed our name to Gavilanes. A gavilan is a hawk, and so our shirt says Gavilanes. Right now, combined, we are in year 67 of the softball team, you figure for, from 1958 to 2025, non stop.

MB: Was it ever a decision for you to continue playing, or was it just part of your life already, you didn't even think of it?

JS: Well, I wanted to keep playing. I loved it, you know. And I'll tell you, yesterday, I was having lunch with uh, not--.he didn't play with the Hawkss, but he played a lot of fastpitch, and, and I said-- he stopped many years ago-- and I said, do you still-- Charlie. Charlie, do you still, when you drive up 22nd and you take a peek, do you take kind of, kind of like, a little extra long look at the softball field, and do you reminisce a little bit as you drive by? I do, right? Because, yeah, you know. So, I think that's a lot of us, you know, because it was so important to us, and some of the best memories in our life, the commarad-- camaraderie, you know, somebody becoming family, but like, good friends, yeah, with teams-- other teams, you know, not just our team. But, the friendships-- it was so, so vital to my life. And so, yeah, I drive by and I take that extra long look, and, and, yeah, there's that reminiscing. And I'm sure there's many of us that do the same thing, you know. So I asked Charlie yesterday, he says, yeah, he does, yep. Lot of memories. So, you know.

JM: Excuse me for interrupting, do you-- did you play a majority of your games at Santa Rita, or did you play like a mixture of--

JS: Well--

JM: Rodeo Park?

JS: We worked our way up to Santa Rita.

JM: Okay.

JS: Okay, when the Hawks started, we were not playing double A, triple A ball.

JM: Oh, okay.

JS: Okay, so we might have played a season at Freedom or a season at Jacobs field, whatever, but you had to earn your right to be at those higher levels. And so we eventually got to Santa Rita field number one. You know, Santa Rita was a goal for all teams. That's kind of, you made it as a skilled, really highly skilled team.

JM: They won't let you play there unless you qualify.

JS: Exactly. Yeah, 'cause the city made the schedules out, you know. And I will tell you, our team-- oh, my god, we would end up, sometimes, 28 and 0 for the season, 27 and 0 for the season, 29 and 0 for the season.

JM: Really?

JS: Yes. You know, and you know, we're all, mostly all blue color and everything. We didn't know a lot or didn't have the money, because we all just sponsored ourselves. We never had an organization sponsor us. One year, one year T & T market in South Tucson, one year, because they bought us shirts and put T & T market on the back. I think that's the only year, yeah.

So, so in 1980, during the Ted Kennedy campaign, that's when Cesar Chavez came into town. Yes, and interesting enough-- check, check this out. So again, he was going to do a news conference with Robert Kennedy Jr, here in town on-- I don't remember if it was a Saturday or Sunday afternoon.

JM: Oh, Ted Kennedy.

JS: Yeah, Ted, for Ted Kennedy, 1980 presidential campaign, and the night before Cesar Chavez-- yes, it was a Sunday because I remember it was Saturday [that] I was playing ball at field number one. I was playing a softball tournament, okay? And Lorraine Lee and Alonzo Morado-- good friends of mine-- that were, they were helping coordinate set of Chavez's speech at El Rio Neighborhood Center that Saturday night, okay? And-- but I was playing ball, you know, I wasn't gonna go there 'til later, but they showed up and-- to tell me, Johnny, we need a sound system because the city provided us a little shitty little thing, and no one's going to be able to hear Cesar speak, because-- I'm also a musician, so I'm in a band, and I had a lot of sound equipment. And I said, okay, well, soon the game's over, I'm gonna go home, shower, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I went and got my sound system, took it to El Rio Neighborhood Center and set it all up. So, so Cesar could have,-- really blast out his voice, because the city wasn't doing him any justice. So.

You know, when you go back and look at Santa Rita Park and-- field number one, again, I'm talking about field number one, where the men played. There used to be bushes on the outside, all around the outside of fence. There used to be vines on the fence back there. You know, it just the aesthetic was just beautiful. But some of the drawbacks, though, the light poles used to be wooden, and the one in center field was inside of the fence, not outside of the fence. And I can tell you, because I ran for a fly ball once and ran into a pole. But people-- you know, it was disturbing because you had a light pole in an inside, in, on the field--

JM: Right.

JS: --before they did the correct thing. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, it wasn't--

JM: Dangerous.

JS: --a bunch, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, so, but we started playing out there, and all the, all the lights were wooden poles, and with the lighting, yeah, but the caliber of play, jeez, one zero games are the best in fastpitch. Pitchers dominate it. Okay, so guys that play slowpitch and never play fastpitch don't understand this. There's a lot of guys that couldn't play or or didn't play fastpitch, so they started playing like Senior League slow pitch. And you know, they do fine and do well. But you know, they think this, 15 to 12 game is great, or 20 to 21. Nothing beats a one zero game, where every pitch has a lot of meaning, yep. And those were a lot of the games we had one zero, two to one, three to two- fantastic, exciting games, man. Imagine when we're playing fastpitch. Okay, how fast you have to think from release, do I swing or don't I swing? It's that quick process. You got to be able to see the ball's braking, if it's going to go down, if it's going to go up, it's going to go out, going to go in, if it's going to be a straight, hardball. I mean, all of those is what you need to consider. So as a ball player, you think about, okay, this pitcher-- to give you an example, I knew a pitcher that all he threw was fastballs and change-ups. He was good, yeah, but that's all he threw. So for me, it would be, okay, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna-- even gonna wait for a change-up. I'm gonna be expecting a fastball every time. That way, it's easier to make an adjustment from a fastball to a slowpitch than a slowpitch to a fastpitch, you know? So you have this kind of mentality that you have to think as a batter, knowing what the idiosyncrasies of the pitchers are, you know, and pick up anything you can pick up that might give you an indicator of what he's going to throw, you know, because sometimes, some pitchers give it away.

And the catcher, they know, they get to know the players, what their weaknesses are, strengths, and that's what-- they're giving signals.

Or you can even see the way the batter stands, and you, the way you see a batter stand-- and that's even, right now, in slowpitch, you pitch to the batter, okay? So if a batter is standing far away, then you're gonna try to hit the outside corner. If he's crouching the plate, you're gonna try to hit the inside corner, you know? So you make your adjustments according to the batter, of where his feet are, and so on. So, so-- cause I'm pitching now too, so.

JM: Oh, you are.

JS: Yeah.

JM: Woah.

JS: [laughs]

So--

JM: Did, did you take a while to get in, to do it? I mean--

JS: You know, I never, I never pitched-- I was always an outfielder, okay, but going into now, I'm going into my 70s, I said, okay, longevity wise, if I want to keep on playing, I need to move to the infield, because the legs are only going to hold out so long in the outfield, you know, you need young blood up there, you know, so on. So I said, okay, I'm going to move to the infield. So, I started playing with teams that will let me play third base, second base, first base. Then my team needed a pitcher, and I practiced at home-- well, I went to the park, put a mat and bucket of balls and practiced. I think I can do this! So, I told the guys, I'm going to give it a try, and it's worked out. So, I'm the main pitcher for the Hawks now.

JM: Wow.

JS: Yeah.

JM: How many innings you play?

JS: Seven.

JM: And you pitch the whole--

JS: Yeah.

JM: --game?

JS: Yeah.

JM: That's very... how's your record?

JS: I got a winning record. Yeah, yeah, I'm something like six and two, maybe?

JM: Wow.

JS: Something like that.

JM: That's awesome.

JS: Yeah.

[laughs[

JM: Would you guys have, have barbecues like you used to do?

JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JM: At Santa Rita Park, I haven't seen it in a long time.

JS: Not as much.

JM: Yeah.

JS: You know. But yes, team still have barbecues and cookouts and so on.

But Santa, oh, Santa Rita, it was great, but-- we had a lot of shade out there too.

JM: Yeah? So, maybe you could go a little bit about the inner-workings of the Hawks and the tournaments and how you guys recruited players.

JS: Yeah.

JM: And how, you know, the structure was and everything and how-- so, one of the things I was interested in, too, is how you, you pass it down from generation to generation? Because obviously it's been about four, five, ten-

JS: Yeah, I wil tell you, our first baseman right now is-- Alejandro Romero, who started the team, it's his grandson.

JM: Yeah, oh yeah, that's right.

JS: [laughs]

JM: Billy [Powe] told us that.

JS: Yeah, it's his grandson. He's playing with us, yeah. And, you know, for me, my older brother, you know, now it's me. But the way it started, you know, Alejandro, you know, they're living there in the Southside, and the kids are running in the streets and playing ball in the streets and, and he decided, you know, you want to do something a little more formal for these kids, you know, get them off the street, maybe get them into parks. And so he, you know, he had a son, George, who was a pitcher. Then he had an older son, Bobby, [who] didn't really play, but-- to help manage their-- manage them, and then Billy was dating their sister, Josie. And then, you know, that-- they had friends, you know, and to-- they, they put a team together. They started, actually-- Oury Park, they had something called the Orphan League. Okay, yeah, at Oury Park, and the guy, David Herrera and Chino Quiroz were running the league. The-- Oury Park's named after them now-- or dedicated to them. You see the sign at Oury.

JM: Where is that park?

JS: I-10 and St Mary's.

JM: Okay.

JS: Next to Davis Elementary. Yeah, they had something called an Orphan League, and I got to play a little bit there on Sundays too, as, as the city was organizing city softball and so on. But they had, they had the Orphan League there. And-- anyway, he-- so, they got the players together. And it wasn't only softball. They also played city baseball, okay?

JM: Hardball.

JS: Hardball too. And so they got enough guys in the team where sometimes you had a baseball game and a softball game on the same night. So they would split the team, half the team would go play baseball, and half the team would go play softball.

JM: Oh, wow.

JS: [laughs]

Yeah, but softball was the main thing that was, that was the love, because the city also used to have flag football, and that one stopped because of too many fights.

JM: Oh.

JS: [laughs]

Yeah, yeah. So when-- when you go to Anita's house and you see that living room with her 150 trophies, or something--

JM: Like 300.

JS: You know, yeah, something like-- well, there's a couple of football trophies in there too. Yeah, there's a couple of volleyball trophies because they got in with some of the women to do co-ed volleyball tournaments, and won a couple of trophies in co-ed volleyball, and there's some baseball and there's some basketball, because we had two basketball teams. We had hawks number one and hawks number two, yeah, we had two basketball teams. I played in Hawks Number 2. Hawks Number 1 were at the higher level, you know, but we, we played men's basketball steadily for quite a few years, and we had two teams for that also.

JM: Wow.

JS: Yeah, so a lot of athlet-- athletes, you know, but not the same guys. We had some guys only played basketball. We had some guys, only played softball, right.

JM: And you did it all.

JS: I did voll--

JM: You said--

JS: I did volleyball too. I think-- I didn't do football, that was before my time. But of course, softball was the main--

JM: Yeah.

JS: By far, by far. So, you know, you will, you recruit friends, you know, to get together, and then you're looking for guys that can play certain positions. You know, it's like and even-- even today, still, you know, you need a third baseman, so you're going to look for someone that does play third base, or can play third base, yeah, yeah. So you feel those specific needs when you play in the league, you know, it's fun and you know you're competitive and so on, so on. But when you get into a tournament, if you still have that spirit in you, okay, you raise your level. It's like-- dive for a ball, when on a regular game, you probably wouldn't, but in the tournament, you will dive for a ball. You raise your level, yeah, you know.

JM: Play harder.

JS: Play harder, yeah, you know, and you're more intense, and recruit, you know, higher caliber players.

JM: Yeah. That makes sense.

JS: Yeah, so, so that's kind of how it has been done, and it still is, yeah.

JM: What's your fondest memory that can think of?

JS: Oh gosh.

JM: I know-- off the top of... of Santa Rita Park?

JS: I just, you know. Oh, you know, I was not a home run hitter, okay? I wasn't big, you know, and so I only had-- in fastpitch, I only had two home runs in my career, okay? I had a couple-- it was just--

JM: Harder.

JS: --because I ran--

JM: That ball, that ball's a bit--

JS: --you know, out of the field. But at Santa Rita field number one, we're playing this tournament, and we were undefeated, and we met up with a team from Las Cruces, New Mexico. I don't remember the pitcher's name, but he was a well, well known pitcher, man. He just throw BBs, but they're all straight, right? So all you got to do, is time it, because he's not going to throw a curveball. He's just gonna, boom, boom, boom.

Yeah, yeah. He had good control, right?

JM: Yeah.

JS: And I was the ninth batter, so that wasn't, I wasn't a good hitter at that time. There are times I played first, bad at first and so on. But at that time, I was the ninth batter, which usually is your weakest, right? And so I go up to bat, and-- right now, at that time, the score is one to one. Now, I went up to bat as the ninth batter, and I took a swing on one of his pitches. I hit it. It went dead center field, over the fence.

JM: Wow.

JS: Yeah. So that did-- I, I ran a home run trot, you know.

JM: Yeah, yeah.

JS: You know, we took the lead. We won the game. That shot us into the championship, you know. But even, even guys that were outside the fans watching the game, some of the guys, they even walked all the way in from partying out there watching the game just to congratulate me.

JM: Did they pick you up or anything?

JS: No, no, that happened in sixth grade.

JM: [laughs]

JS: Right here, when I won the championship. Yeah, yeah, they picked me up on the shoulders. Yeah, yeah, yep, I was in sixth grade. Actually- the umpire-- kind of full circle. The janitor here at Van Buskirk [Elementary School] was the umpire for our school tournament. He's the brother of Anita Romero.

JM: Oh, you're kidding.

JS: Okay.

JM: Yeah.

JS: So Joe, the umpire, we're having a tournament, and-- this might be my fondest moment of my whole life, on this one. We're playing for the championship, and it was classroom by the classroom, right? We're playing for the championship, and I'm playing first base, right? And they had a kid who was from Mexico, and you know-- what they used to do back in the day is, even though, even though, you know, you're smart, whatever, but you didn't speak English, you'd be 14 years old and you might be in fifth grade. I mean, they would do it that way when they bring kids from Mexico.

JM: Yeah.

JS: Right. So we had this one kid from Mexico. Every time he came up to bat, he was hitting a home run. He always hit it to the same spot in right field. So when the time came up for him to bat, they had a guy at first base, and so I called a time out. I was a captain. I called a time out, and I switched with the right fielder, put him at first base. I went to right field, and then went and stood on the spot where he kept on hitting the ball, right?

JM: Oh, really? That's smart.

JS: Yeah, and, gosh darn if he doesn't do it again, right? And so the guy in first takes out running, thinking that's a home run, I'm out there, and I catch it, I throw it to first-- double play, game's over, we win the championship. So of course, everybody kind of threw me on their shoulder and everything. They gave us a trophy.

[laughs]

JM: Did you have to reach really high to get it?

JS: No, no, I didn't. I was there, caught it, yeah, yeah. So anyways, I think, I don't know what my real fondest moment in fastpitch, but that's definitely a highlight, that home run I hit off that, that pitcher. I don't know. We won a lot of championships. One, maybe one other one that I can think of right now that popped into my mind-- we're playing a tournament-- field number one, and my brother Tarzan was pitching--

JM: Can I ask a real quick question?

JS: Yes.

JM: How'd your brother get that nickname, Tarzan? [laughs]

JS: You know, when we used to live in Nogales--

JM: Yeah.

JS: --at the time when the original Johnny Weiss Miller Tarzan movies were starting--

JM: Yeah.

JS: And so he, you know, they used to go see the Tarzan movies up in the theater downtown in Nogales, and one of the guys that was a friend of his thought he looked like Johnny Weiss Miller because of his hair. And so he started calling him Tarzan. And so when we moved to Tucson, it just so happened that this guy here, el partido-- Arthur Milano-- I don't know if you know him-- he also moved to Tucson and ran into him, and that's what the-- Tarzan name picked up again, and that's where it took off, that's... but, he has a different story. My brother used to tell the girls when they'd ask him, why did he call you Tarzan? He was only like 16-- because I have hair on my chest.

[laughs]

Trying to impress those girls, right?

[laughs]

JM: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. So, so there was one tournament where I was hot-- hitting, hot, hot, hot, and they gave two trophies at the end of the tournament. We won the championship. So they called my brother and they called me out there in front of home plate. My brother got a trophy for pitcher of the tournament. I got a trophy for being the highest batting average, the best hitter of the tournament, so me and my brother standing out there, both with our trophies.

JM: Man, that's--

JS: Yeah, yeah. But-- I don't know-- there's so many memories. Yeah, they started a women's fastpitch softball league last year. They were playing at Lincoln Park, and there were like 6, 7, 8, teams that were playing.

JM: Really?

JS: Yeah, you know who started it-- Rocky LaRose, when she retired from the U of A, and Rocky used to play at Santa Rita field number two, which is-- when she was-- I remember her back when we're like, high school age.

JM: Is she coach now?

JS: No, no, she retired as assistant athletic director--

JM: Oh, okay.

JS: --of the U of A, you know, and so, when she retired, she started fastpitch league here, and I don't know why it didn't happen this year, but-- they did it last year and... yeah, she's one of these girls that used to play at Santa Rita field number two back in the day.

You know, you ask guys, what-- a lot of times, what did you like the most? Lifelong friendships that you develop. And I, I've been told that by guys when I ask the question, what'd you like the most about all these years we played fastpitch? Lifelong friendships.

JM: You guys are still playing.

JS: And a lot of us are still playing. In, in my team, right now-- 67th anniversary of the Hawks-- I have at least 11 of us that played fastpitch, and so we're playing right now in my team.

MB: Did you ever play with them when you were younger?

JS: Yeah, at one time or another, yeah. Three of them played with the Hawks, and myself. The four of us that are in Gavilanos right now in our 60s and 70s, played with the Hawks when we were 20, 30 years old.

JM: Damn.

JS: Yeah.

JM: That's awesome.

JS: Yeah. So, so, gosh, yeah. I think, you know, the lifelong friendships is probably the biggest outcome-- and there used to be Winter League softball too, I don't know if anyone told you about the Winter League fastpitch, because you had your, well-- 'cause all we're talking about is summer.

JM: I remember seeing it at the park.

JS: Yeah, 'cause the summer, you know, it was, it was roughly April, May, June, July, August, was the softball league, and then you had September, October, November, December to January, for, for Winter League. So in Winter League, we didn't have a team, so we all-- whoever wanted to play Winter League would go with different teams, because the Hawks didn't play Winter League. But even-- and that happened for a few years, but a lot of people don't know that. At Santa Rita field number one, the city used to have mush ball instead of fastpitch. So for, so for a few seasons, a lot of the fastpitch softball players played mush ball during the winter league, and the mush ball was-- only one player on the team has a glove, so-- usually it's first base. Okay, the ball is like this, and it's kind of mushy, so it doesn't go-- you can't hit home runs, but you can hit long fly balls. So as an outfielder, when a ball comes to you, you either catch it like this, or either- hitch your hands and kind of do this and then catch it. So there are some techniques, yeah, but the city of Tucson had mush ball leagues in the winter instead of fastpitch softball. Did that for a few years, we played mush ball, and then--

JM: That wouldn't be that bad, that'd be--

JS: Yes, yeah, it's easier. Yeah, it's a cool game, you know? But when you hit the ball, man, it's hard, you know, it goes-- yeah, exactly, because it's mushy, yeah, they call it mush ball. So, so the city did that for a few years, and then went to Winter League fastpitch, you know? So, so the fields were being used basically year round.

JM: Yeah.

JS: And all the top tournaments were there.

The, the reason we left Santa Rita Park was because of the homeless situation.

JM: Yeah, I know.

JS: The Senior League that we have. We've been playing at Santa Rita Park for the last few years, you know. So it became a-- and it became more of a burden for the ladies that went to the park, you know, and having to deal with this. So that's why we moved out of there. When we were playing fast pitch back in the day. There were still-- some of a homeless situation, but these were mostly guys who would come up to train from Nogales, you know, and they would get off at the park, right? So they're using the train system.

JM: Yeah.

JS: And so, they're mostly Mexicanos, right? And they pretty much stayed to themselves, never an issue.

MB: I want to thank you for your time and for sharing a bit about what the park meant to you. This concludes our interview with Juan Soto.